I remain hopeful, yet skeptical -- the reasons for which I will enumerate below in as specific a manner as possible.

1) As Port1080 mentioned above, this is a quality discussion site. It really ties the whole internet together. The name even has panache, for example, a co-worker of mine saw me typing out a story for this site and said "Oooh, trees AND things, how cute!" Many forums start out with a shortage of "dedicated" people -- this one had the distinct advantage of bringing with it several highly valuable "free agents" from a previous forum. The interface is a decent start. Not bad at all.

However, there are several areas which need improvement (in this users simple opinion):

2) Almost everybody here is from the "old site." I think I am the only person I can think of on here who did not have a significant presence at Plastic, having heard of this site from a friend. While this is a good start there needs to be some serious membership efforts put out there. As you may be aware, there is no such thing as a frictionless surface and in a closed system the entropy count always rises (2nd law of Thermodynamics) -- thus with no influx of new users no matter how hard we try this site would be unsustainable in the long run.

I, for one, graduated to other internet forums from fark.com, after getting tired of the inane discussion and poor interface. However, that website is immensely popular and due to its size acts like a bus depot into the internet for new users who quickly find themselves shunted off to other forums with intelligent discussion (much like AOL during the early 90s was the starting point for many pople).

I suggested to the Board of Directors account via PM on 4/29 an idea of posting an ad on fark.com for $40, which would supposedly generate 10M impressions at least 1k in clickthroughs, and to a much better targetted audience than AdWords. Thankfully, I also sent copies of my PM to 2 other board members because it still has yet to be read in the BoD account. They were generally receptive although I do not believe it has been acted upon yet (Hell, I even offered to contribute towards the cash needed and take care of posting the ad on fark), but have yet to hear back besides initial positive feedback from the individual members I contacted.

We don't even have to use my suggested ad for TnT on fark: "Doncha wish your discussion forum was hot like me?" Please don't.

2) Site Layout and Experience: It is a great start, however I believe initial requests for certain features to enhance the layout were not yet fufilled. I'll just ramble off my wish list:

a) Each story filed under a seperate category which is arranged cleanly around the front page with one prominent story featured, instead of the whole thing going in chronological order. We've had stories where suprisingly nobody has commented, and they depress the few with tons of comments further down the page, making it difficult to read things more than a day or two old. This would be a major turnoff to new users I imagine.

b) QuickLink Rankings: Why have rankings if the whole system is simply in chronological order? How about after 12 or 24 hours in the QL (in a "new" section?) the QLs are filed by popularity and the most unpopular one is the one to be terminated? You could even have a system where links would then "Age Out" after 4-7 days in the event somebody posts something that gets all +s.

c)  Diaries: great concept -- but we need to have a "# new!" feature in that tab because most of the time I don't even realize somebody posted a new diary entry.

d) Leadership: How is the BoD doing? I haven't heard anything about them in months. Also, is incorporation really the biggest problem facing here now? I'd respectfully suggest the top priorities should be #1) Membership recruitment & retention #2) Site development/layout. Otherwise you'll be worrying about dissolving a corp soon after you found it.

e) Comments: Could we get mojo implemented, please? And next to the 1,2,3,4,5s on the numerical ratings could we put a description on the 1,3 and 5 so new people know which to give? I've seen several outstanding comments with mixed 1s and 5s. For example 1= Poor, 2, 3= Fair, 4, 5 = Exemplary. Also, could we have a filter that allows us to avoid viewing crap which has been modded down repeatedly, which brings me to...

f) Spambots: WTF!?  The infestation is getting out of control and I am sure this is leading to google downranking the site and new users not taking us seriously.

g) PMs: Could we have a feature that allows you to send a single PM to all the Board, or all of the editors? That would be super. Also, allowing us to send to more than 1 user at a time (perhaps up to 5 or 10) would be great.

h) Stats page - hasn't been updated since Feb I think. Could this get fixed? Thanks. Also, how about a stats page for each user we could view about their "mojo" and other personal statistics?

i) Member of the Week/Month - Have this be randomlly alocated by a script to an active user (as determined by frequent logins, to encourage lurker involvement). This would then trigger a PM/e-mail to the user asking him/her to fill out a questionnaire of general questions which could then be posted so we could 'get to know each other better.' That user could even moderate or participate in the ensuing discussion if they wanted to. It may be cool to get to know each other on a more personal level.

3) As I occasionally skive off of work to write submissions I thought of some things that may help new writers:

a) Implement a "Your Sub Sucks" e-mail - Right now you get a congratulatory e-mail from "shane" when a story of yours get published. You get squat if it is canned. If an editor cans a sub could they be responsible for having to write a brief reason (such as a few sentences to a paragraph) explaining why it wasn't posted and what could be done to improve in the future? I think that would be great. If the sub simply ages out for being in the Q for too long (a month? 2 weeks?) this could be done automagically. You could even sign it "T.S., Elliot" for a classy inside joke.

b) Best of the Month/Quarter/Fiscal Year Contest - Have users nominate the best accepted sub of the month. This would serve two purposes: 1) It could get tagged as such (perhaps with a cool bling bling icon next to it in the archives) so new writers could refer to the best ones for ideas on formatting, etc 2) It would stimulate more discussion about what everybody wants to talk about. I have no idea what people think is cool, I just write randomly. Because that's how I roll.

c) Publish a guide from the editors and make it prominent in the FAQ of what the proper elements are and suggestions. Anything to get stuff from new authors.

d) Does anybody even peruse anybody else's user info? I used to change My Backstory on the 1st of the month, promptly, but have not done so in a long time because I think nobody cares. As you may be aware, they are always fake anyway. So I have never grown up in Guam, driven an 18 wheeler, owned an Armadillo named Amos, or gotten chased out of Hazleton, PA by angry locals and Lou Dobbs.

I am too tired to write anymore, and Billy Joel's "We didn't start the fire" just came on my playlist, so if you excuse me I am going to get funky. So, in conclusion, this site has a ton of promise (otherwise I wouldn't be here) but it needs to get kicked up at least 3 notches.

Thank you for your time and attention this matter.

Warmest Regards,
pO157

PS - Please don't think I am some kind of catty old desperate housewife who has nothing better to do than gossip about the shortcomings of internet forums, but I was under the impression this post called for constructive criticism so that is what I attempted to do. Thanks!

Even aside from plastic.com's lengthy period of unavailability, I had to abandon plastic because of the level of animosity I encountered.  Treesandthings seems to be better designed, although I am well aware that if I am not careful I can still offend people and may incur severe animosity.  The anonymous comments and anonymous moderation on plastic both lend themselves to dishonest and malicious purposes, as people can evade any responsibility for what they do.  People can still be idiots on treesandthings, but at least we will know which user name is associated with a given act of idiocy.  This brings about some restraint.  And the admonition that we receive every time we post a comment, "Use a clear subject.  Personal attacks and name calling are discouraged." is excellent, although I have still seen some personal attacks and name calling - but very little, in comparison to what I used to see on plastic.  Everything considered, I am very pleased with this site and I hope that it will have a long and successful future.

I've got to keep this short and sweet because I'm still not 100 percent.  TnT is still here and producing quality discussion fodder.  I appreciate the efforts of my fellow writers and, of course, port and fastdog who make sure the stories get run.  Would I like it if TnT had hundreds more members and we were running twice as many stories a day?  Hell, yes.  But, these things take time and I'm willing to put any impatience I might have with the slowness in growth of the site for the time being.  I would like to second what P0157 suggested about running an ad on Fark.  It couldn't hurt and if we get more traffic as a result, it could give us a needed boost and some new blood.

As far as Plastic is concerned, I may occasionally visit and lurk but I just can't find it within me to participate.  My cursory examination of some of the discussion threads informs me that, if anything, the toxicity at that site has gotten worse not lightened up.  My bottomline on that situation is we're not plastic and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

This is a great site that, aside from a few users, almost no one takes full advantage of.
Consider this my member-directed rant:
We've got a terrific forum here - it's transparent and mostly user-friendly. There's no anonymous idiots to snipe at users. As port noted in the w/up, we usually get time-sensitive stories posted in quick fashion. We've got a small but dedicated bunch of posters. We've got people (eds and board members) that are generally pretty easy to reach if there's a problem, and if there is a problem, we've been pretty quick to either fix it or at least make people aware of the problem's status. The list goes on, but I think that this site is pretty damn rockin' in terms of meeting people's discussion needs.
However, what this site needs but doesn't yet have, are users willing to contribute..... Got yer attention? Good, now listen up:
For a discussion site to work, we need things to discuss. To discuss things we need write-ups. Without write-ups, we've got nada to talk about, and that's where y'all have dropped the ball. We have a bunch of well-qualified writers, most of whom don't contribute subs. We've currently got 582 registered users, but the reality is that two users (MayorBob & pO157) have contributed the lion's share of material (and many thanks to both of them for turning out quality submissions). Here's a snap of the tags page:

edited by port1080    179
written by MayorBob    111
edited by 1fastdog    72
written by pO157    64
politics    29
written by Port1080    27
law    23
edited by Ace    21
Iraq    18
death    18
crime    15
kids    14
written by 1fastdog    12
war    11
health    11
Religion    11
Music    11
meta    10
education    10
science    10
money    10
written by thefadd    9
Democrats    8
drugs    8
advertising    8
Prison    8
school    8
written by shane    8
written by Thalia    8
written by Acefantastik    7
media    7
Terrorism    7
food    7
lawsuit    7
Written by profwhat    7

That's a lotta work being shouldered by those two members and their presence is missed immensely when they're unable to contribute. Both port and myself have dashed off subs on several occasions when the Q was running on E - and we're not looking for any pats on the back for doing so - in hopes of having discussable material available. I can't stress enough how valuable fresh write-ups are. They are, for all intents and purposes, the lifeblood of this community. Without write-ups, this place, our fine little discussion venue, will wither and die. So please, please, please, for the sake of preserving this continuing experiment in transparent discussion, contribute some fucking write-ups, people!

Sorry for the harsh tone, but we need some motivation and if I've got to harsh your mellow a bit to shake you out of your doldrums, so be it. Don't feel that you need to be some English lit major to put in a w/up. All it really takes is two cohesive paragraphs and a few links, that's it. If you've yet to submit a story, please give it a try this week and see what it's all about.

All that said, I really do appreciate the effort that's been put into this place by everyone. Everyone who's ever commented, subbed, donated (time or money), or just plain hung out for awhile deserves a shout-out. So thanks to you all for your continuing presence, and I'd be remiss in not giving some major kudos to port1080. port has carried this place editorially and otherwise on more than a few occasions, and deserves a thank you from everyone for the amount of time that he's logged here. Thanks port!

As I mentioned at the top, we've got a really cool spot that the vast majority doesn't use to their advantage - grab the horns now and use this forum to its full potential, 'cuz if you don't, the old adage about not knowin' what ya got 'til it's gone will surely come into play.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

I'm sorry I haven't been more forthcoming about our status lately.  I didn't want to call a new Board Meeting until I had something to bring to the table in terms of incorporation.  I was going to rouse myself to post a simple status update in the Diary section today, when I saw this story on the front page.

Here's where we stand on incorporation:  I got in contact with a lawyer who seems both versed in nonprofit law, and willing to review our documents before we send them in.  He was going to review with his partner what they were prepared to charge, and I need to get back in touch with him this upcoming week.

Advertising:  In my opinion, Adwords has been a flop.  I tried running ads for five specific stories after they showed some activity--Baby Hatches, Virginia Tech, Partial Birth Abortion, the Pirate Teacher, and Ron Paul.  We got 192,342 total impressions, which garnered 378 clickthroughs (oddly, the Baby Hatches story was the most popular).  To do this, we had to spend $159.71, and we now have 14 more members than we did 8 weeks ago.  pO157 has suggested spending $40 on a Fark classified ad, and I'd like to stop Adwords and try this instead.

If that doesn't work....then I have no freaking clue how to bring people in here.  If I've learned anything from this site, it's that I have no hope of ever predicting how many comments a story will get.  Pens?  Baby Hatches?  Poetry?  Not Ron Paul???  It's the Internet!  How can we run a Ron Paul story and get less than 50 comments?  My only Plan B here is to kill time until Plastic fails again.

I don't want to see this site fail.  Not only because I feel responsible for it, but because I think it's superior in a lot of ways to what Plastic is.  The Management is more responsive, you can make your own polls, we have better RSS and viral options, and the Diary feature is a nice touch as well.  The most pressing dev issue that I see is that we need to turn on Mojo somehow.  I'm answering "Yes" in the poll.  The only question is how many users we will have then.

(is 3fingerspointback)

I like TnT.

I like Plastic.

Neither one is entirely like 'golden age Plastic' was and I supposed that is really gone forever.  The user base for each seems greatly diminished from the 'golden age' after several months of  'and now I go UNQUIETLY into that ...  stygian outhouse of hammed-up self pity and spite'  swan song/caterwauling.  Those remaining sturdy souls have hammered out a pair of new communities.  Neither place has the story volume of the golden age or as rich and varied a tapestry of commentary but each has a gritty core of value added to almost any discussion and so I keep reading and sometimes posting.

I look at the malevolent AI insanity at the old place and wonder at how THAT seems to be the thing that doesn't dry up and blow away when many of the truly worthwhile voices have moved on.  It makes me suspect that the source of all that anonymous venom lives protected at the very core of the sites existence, like a monster at the center of a maze.

It makes me very thankful for TnT as a place where people can get a little nasty if they want - but they have to do it 'out in the open' so to speak.  Each of us is aware that whatever they say will be remembered by the community and that their tag symbolizes a kind of person - whom you sort of know - because they own what they say.  I think that is how the value of tolerance is taught (you may think someone is a complete bastard but you learn to ... fuck it, you simply get to have your opinion reinforced... bad example, sorry).  The great AI post debate that went on here a while ago had me worried about seeing that AI Pandora's box opened up and this place resembling a contaminated sewer of AI trash posts.  At TnT we contaminate the sewer semi-anonymously, which is very brave or something.

TnT and Plastic, like many things in life, reminds me (loosely) of Star Trek.  Particularly the episode where the transporter malfunctions and separates Captain Kirk in to Evil, Violent, Rapacious Kirk and Pussy Kirk.  So now the 2 halves of one soul are running about separately seeing the submissions rate drop and the quickening throb of vitality ebb low but this time James Doohan isn't going to rewire the bullshit device to make it all better before the 40 minutes is up - this time we have to stop looking backwards and head into the future with 2 places to look to for insightful discussion of reality as it hoves into view.

That's where we are now.

"...when theft and high crime becomes obscenely obvious to even the blindest beer sucking idiot, it is always the Republicans who are in office." -- Joe Bageant

My thoughts, in random order:

1.  Holy crap, has my real life been busy the last 3 months.

2.  Separate in your mind four distinct problems: few submissions; few posts; few moderations; few readers.  Of those problems, "few readers" is by far the worst.  On other sites, when you post something, you'll know that it might get read by a hundred people, and some of them will reply.

3.  A comment was made in a thread on the famous "Waiting for Plastic" blog that I think no one ever had a good answer for.  In the midst of several posts bemoaning the then-apparent death of Plastic and promising to build a new site, someone asked: "Since 2001, have any other sites emerged where you can post links to articles, and then comment on them?"  I think that this is the heart of our problems.

4.  Perl remains my least favorite language.

I have been terribly busy over the past year or so, so I haven't been able to participate here or at Plastic as much as I would have liked.  I enjoy both sites for the eclectic mix of stories that get posted (would that I had the time to read them all) as well as for the discussions that ensue.  Some of the names of the posters are familiar to me, and I like to read what they have to say.

Having said that, I don't really know where the vitriol came from on Plastic.  Many discussions got derailed by nasty snarks aimed at some of the more prominent posters there--things that went beyond what used to be the normal line of disagreement with someone's position into vile personal attacks having nothing to do with what the poster was saying.  There is an ongoing discussion there now about how to deal with this problem.

I really hope that Plastic can get its act together.  I have loved the site since it was first spun off of Suck, and I would hate to see it go down.

P.S.  I enjoy this site too.  Wish I had more time to spend on it.

Tomorrow I will be sober, but you will still be ugly.

Well, at treesandthings.com, of course.

Seriously, I'm a big fan of this site, and I'd love to see it grow.  Solid writing and myriad perspectives are what keep me around, and I feel this site has that in spades.  I also think there are lots and lots of solid writers with unique perspectives out there that we somehow have to lure into the trees (and things).  I know diddly-squat about internet forums, so I'm afraid I'm at a loss as to how to grow the site...but here's hoping you net-savvy folks have some workable suggestions.

Also, a shout-out to those whose time and effort have got TnT to this point.  Kudos to you all.

At least here we can not just discuss what we think is wrong with TNT, but also implement changes to fix those problems.  Often, those changes have to be made by changing code.  Joel Spolsky is right that the design decisions in software that underlie a community play a crucial role in how that community develops.  One thing I like about TnT is that the community is open to changes in the software (after appropriate discussion) and that we have people who are willing to make those changes.  (And if anyone else wants to help make the changes, speak up).

I think the problem with this is that because it's about the easiest thing we can do, it's tempting to see changing the code as the solution to all of our problems.  I see many great ideas in the feature wishlists people have posted here - but I doubt any of those features is going to make the difference in TnT's survival.

Early on, the default Scoop codebase had some seriously usability issues.  The look and feel of the site was uninviting and the layout was clunky and busy.  But we've made significant improvements.  The layout is clean. Text is easy to read, and the colors are easy on the eyes (if a bit pale).  We've even managed to recreate PMs.  We've come a long way, and we've built a pretty usable and inviting website.

We have profwhat to thank for most of the code changes.  But the board has spent a large percentage of its meeting time designing, reviewing and approving those modifications.  Total, I think we spent an entire meeting or two on the new logo alone.  Not that that time didn't need to be spent.  But the new logo hasn't really done all that much to snare new users and get them posting.

At this point I thinks it's time we dedicate ourselves to finding other ways to ensure the survival of TnT - by gaining members, and promoting participation.  Not that the board hasn't spent time on these issues, but I think further code modifications will be a distraction.  We don't need a new feature X - we need compelling write-ups on interesting subjects, and intelligent readers who post intelligent commentary.

Ok.  First off I am a plastic lurker.  Big time- I joined right after it started and I only have 30 karma over there.  When plastic went out I tried to follow what was happening on IRC.  But I never heard about this place till yesterday.  You see they have a similar story going on over there.  

I was actually googling mayorbob because I never got the straight dope on that whole mess (I was out of town when that shit happened).  Well he popped up- and here.  Possibly TNT has low member levels because nobody has heard about it?

Well, we have a cool logo!

I've seen essentially all the sites I hang out at go through a drop in participation and an examination of what people can do to make things better, and hence attract more people.

Is a drop in participation endemic to the entire internet scene?

    While I've been a constant presence here, I've never felt that I've had a lot to do with the way the site developed over time. If any of the following comments strike anyone the wrong way, well, I'm not trying to step on any toes.

    More stories would be nice, but more comments would be better*. After seeing a few topics that start strong but fizzle after a dozen comments, I can see why going through the effort to post a sub could move down ones priority list. Getting over the memory of the hurdles a sub at Plastic could pose isn't easy either, and I'm sure several frequent posters here have thought, "why bother taking the time?" This doesn't mean we have to accept every sub that comes down the line, but openly stating, repeatedly, that there are different standards here might help a bit. (I did a lot of research for the Squirrel Nut Zippers story, but that's because I wanted to find out about the band, and what they'd been up to, not because I was terrified of rejection for not having enough links.)
    Something that's been running in the background for months has been the notion of a theme, even some kind of mission statement, for the site. Nothing wrong~ with the current one- it plays off the name nicely- but having a second one, some kind of pitch we could make to attract new members, seems like it might help attract new members. Do we want to be a political site with some other topics for seasoning? The Sheehan story reminded me too much of why I haven't gone back to Plastic, and if we turned into the polite version of Plastic on those topics, I'm unsure we'd pull anyone away with that bait. I know there's perils involved, tussling over whether a story "fits" by purity or not, but I believe the members here are old enough (real age, and Net experience) to prevent that from being a big problem.
    One advantage to this would be that it opens up a whole slew of older topics, not just the news du jour. Not that "headline" stories would have to stop- never, never, never- but it would give everyone a chance to mine something they've learned in the past, or go learn about something new. What the theme could be hasn't come to me (one reason it's gone unmentioned before today), but certain broad categories seem unlikely: Pop Culture is right out, as that doesn't seem to be a strength in the user pool; "culture" has bad overtones, at least IMO, as does "lifestyle"; and "tech" is being done elsewhere, and very well. A site I visited years ago, doing research for a Gene Wolfe sub, was Crooked Timber. You know from the start that the place is about human interests, and not from a political point of view (at least not political as in Left/Right.) I'm not saying it's the model to copy, just pointing out that the slogan either makes you want to join the discussion (or move on) all on its own. At least it made me think that. YMMV.
    There's more, but this is already turning into a trademark uncarved 500-word essay. Think I'll go post a few replies, hopefully short ones :)

    *For instance, I recall seeing several accounts voting for this story, some which I didn't recognize. Care to chime in? If you give feedback on why you're here, and what would make you stay, that would be grist for the mill for the editors.
    ~In fact, I used it when thinking about my Squirrel Nut Zippers story. (Was that really Tom Maxwell? I choose to believe!) Talking about a band is one thing, saying how great they are; trying to hash out influence, importance in the overall music scene and the culture at large, that's a different background for a discussion. Now, this may not appeal to everyone, or even a majority, but it's very much the kind of discussions that I could get behind.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

and now I lurk here. As an aside, I use stumbleupon and (finally) gave TnT the thumbs up. Only one other person had done so.

I was here at TnT's inception, then due to a crap-ton of family stuff had to disappear and be a mom for a while. I am back in a possition to spend a little more time here, to comment on stories, and, hopefully, to make some submissions.
I will be perfectly honest in that my time at Plastic really soured me to the idea of attempting to run a story, or to posting comments, as invariably, someone wouldn't like them, and make it their mission to make sure I knew that they didn't like it, and I was a stupid-doodoo-head for posting.thinking such.
TnT is a good site, it will come into it's own soon enough. We might have started by being Plastic throw0backs, but we are not Plastic, and that is good, because from what I can tell, Plastic is melting down (sorry for the bad pun).

I really like the Fark ad idea, especailly the "posting it with a better headline" tag.

Any changes needed to TnT will comeover time, organicly, the way TnT did in the first place.

During the Great Plastic Outage (tm) of 2006 I followed the creation of TnT closely.  And when the site came up, I set it as my homepage (as Plastic had been before).  And when Plastic came back online, I added it as a bookmark in my "Forums" folder, but kept TnT as my homepage.

I was never a big contributer at Plastic.  I did go through a phase over the summer of 2002 submitting lots of stories and comments, pushing my karma up into the mid 200s.  But since my move to Japan, I haven't been anywhere near as productive as I was during that one summer.  The same has held true with my time here at TnT.  This doesn't mean, though, that I'm not reading. :)

I think the Fark ad would be a good idea to get some new users.  And I do think TnT is here to stay.  So, to those in charge of keeping this site going, keep up the good work!

Given the explosion in popularity of mixed martial arts, or MMA, in the past few months, in hindsight I think if my MMA sub had been run TNT would have attracted hundreds, if not thousands of new members based on it alone.

With the 4th of July less than a month away, maybe it's time for a sub about competive eating? Joey Chesnut rocked the sport in Tempe breaking Kobayashi's hot dog record, which means this years Nathan's contest will be an epic showdown the likes of which the world has never seen.

This place looks awesome! I've gotten sick of Plastic and today saw a link to here! Huzzah! It would be nice, though, if NST (-3:30GMT) were a time zone option!

I look forward to reading more of this site.