Legal

Viva La Placa

MayorBob.

Posted to Legal on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 06:33:48 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

If you're a motorist in Florida you can show your support for a sports team, school, family values or the environment.  Soon, you'll be able to show your love of God and country on the back of your car.  These are the specialty license plates the state of Florida issues to anyone willing to pay the extra $25 annually to mount them on the back of their cars.  There is one group of people who believe they should have their own plate and they think the state is unfairly discriminating against them by virtue of some official regulations.  That group would be the Hispanics, represented by a non-profit interest group which is suing the state to have an Hispanic plate authorized.

The National Hispanic Corporate Achievers (NHCA) is the non-profit group and their idea was to have a plate which boosted and promoted Hispanic achievement and pride.  They find themselves up against the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles which says there is a procedure for getting a plate authorized.  That procedure involves the taking of a scientific survey and deposit of (US)$60,000 with the state.  The survey must show (pdf doc) sufficient interest exists in such a personalized plate to justify creating one (currently 30,000 potential buyers is considered sufficient).

The NHCA wants to cut through all that red tape because, with 3.6 million Hispanics living in Florida, it's a no-brainer that 30,000 people would want to buy one.  The complaint (pdf doc) filed in US District Court is not seeking monetary damages; it just asks the court to have Florida change its rules.  According to the complaint, it would be an unnecessary burden to conduct a survey throughout Florida, as Hispanics mostly live in the central and southern part of the state and would "underrepresented" in the northern part of the state.  The state rejected the NHCA application, in part, because "the plate would not yield 'strong results in the non-Hispanic community." The plaintiffs also ask the court to order the state to change its license plate creation procedures because they work to disadvantage Hispanics.  According to NHCA attorney Adam Sudbury:

"We are not saying in this lawsuit that anyone is purposely discriminating against Hispanics.  What we are saying, however, is that the statute . . . is discriminatory in its effect."
Sudbury says, by virtue of the state commissioning more than 120 types of personalized plates, they have "created a forum for speech" which must be open to all.  The state says it will fight the NHCA on this because the rules are "neutral and nondiscriminatory" and they treat all groups which petition for new licenses the same way.  The NHCA changed its requested plate from "Hispanics Discovered Florida" to "Hispanics Settled Florida" to quiet critics who said the original design was insulting to American Indians who were in Florida before Ponce de Leon landed in 1513.  Actually, the most current plate is incorrect as the first Europeans to establish settlements in Florida were the French and Spanish.  Beyond that, as a modern term, Hispanic was coined in the 1970s to quantify the Spanish-speaking population for the U.S. Census.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by MayorBob, lawsuit, civil rights, Hispanic, Florida, license plates (all tags)

This story: 41 comments (4 from subqueue)
Post a Comment
26

I have a feeling the debate is straying.

MayorBob.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 03:19:35 PM EST

5.00 (astute, interesting)

It seems there are two methods to get personalized license plates approved.  One way is to find a legislator who will introduce a bill in the legislature to have the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles and Every Possible Permutation of License Plates offer them for sale.  The other way is to go through the outlined procedures which involves a $60K deposit and the conducting of a statewide poll.  Apparently, the NHCA tried to push for a plate by the former method and failed because it couldn't get enough legislative support.  Thus, it seems the NHCA's remaining course of action is to take the latter approach -- which it doesn't want to do.

So, if this is such a hot item and a no-brainer, why can't the NHCA raise the $60K through donations and run the damned poll the way the law outlines?  Why, indeed, should the law be bent for the NHCA and its putative Hispanic supporters?  Because there's more than 30,000 Hispanics in the state?  That doesn't mean that there would be 30,000 people willing to spring $25 a year to have the plate on their car.  And I can see the state agency's POV in this; you start acting like the rules don't apply for this and then you have every special interest group who wants the state to press a license plate forcing them.  Wait a minute, you don't like the Hispanic thing, how about "Cubans -- Here Until Fidel Dies"?  You can't tell me there aren't at least 30,000 Cuban-Americans in southern Florida who don't want to see Fidel at room temperature.  How about "Snowbirds -- Waiting For The Icy Hands Of Death"?  You can't tell me there aren't enough native Floridians tired of all the transplants from Jersey and New York.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

1

Re: Viva La Placa

skeptic.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 08:29:56 AM EST

none

Given that the first European settlers of Florida were French and Spanish, the term "Hispanic" does apply, since the Spanish are indeed part of the Spanish-speaking population (the original part).  However, as slogans go, "Hispanics Settled Florida" is not very exciting.  Sure enough, there are lots of Hispanics in Florida, that much is obvious.  They must have settled there.  This does not exactly need to be pointed out.  For that matter, to really make its point, the slogan should probably be in Spanish.  What does it say about the Hispanic population if even their official slogan is in English?

2

How hard could it be?

Lou.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 08:43:34 AM EST

none

Hell...friggen Large Mouth Bass have a specialty plate in Florida...and they don't vote OR drive.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

17

^ 2

Quick, before Urkel gets here.

MayorBob.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 01:59:41 PM EST

4.66 (funny, funny, funny)

Large mouth bass aren't taking jobs away from godfearing, English-speaking (well sort of) red-blooded Americans.  Large mouth bass aren't sending their spawn to school, costing the aforementioned American taxpayers money.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

3

Re: Viva La Raza

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 09:34:50 AM EST

none

Aren't there any civil rights laws in Florida that would tend to disallow racist license plates?

4

^ 3

Re: Viva La Raza

skeptic.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 11:03:52 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

A more highly evolved kind of human society would not find it necessary for anyone to identify themselves with an ethnic group; we could all just be human beings, thus eliminating even the possibility of racism (until we find an extra-terrestrial race that we can discriminate against).  However, just because you belong to an ethnic group or take pride in it, does not in itself make you a racist.  One can be appreciative of one's own ethnic group without thereby being hostile to other ethnic groups.

5

^ 4

Re: Viva La Raza

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 11:08:07 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

So you wouldn't consider a "white pride" license plate to be at all offensive to non-whites?

6

^ 5

Re: Viva La Raza

Lou.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 11:30:37 AM EST

3.00 (funny)

What's "white"?  

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

7

^ 6

Re: Viva La Raza

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 11:33:24 AM EST

4.00 (funny)

None of the above.

8

^ 5

Re: Viva La Raza

skeptic.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 11:42:31 AM EST

none

It is unfortunately the case that the concept of "white pride" has generally been associated with with hostility toward non-white ethnic groups.  But people who consider themselves to be "white" could more specifically identify themselves as British, Irish, French, Swedish, German, Polish, Lithuanian, and so forth.  There are dozens of European ethnicities, and it is possible to celebrate such ethnicities without implying any kind of racial supremacy, or any antagonism toward other ethnic groups.  

You could reasonably inquire as to whether the effort to celebrate the Hispanic ethnicity is merely an expression of ethnic pride, or has the same kind of socially harmful element as we would expect to find in a "white pride" group.  I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.  

It is often the case that people find it necessary, in order to support their own feeling of self-respect and self-worth, to take pride in their ancestors and in the entire ethnic group from which they derive.  This is particularly true because when you see other people who make a point of celebrating their own ethnicity, you may not want to feel left out of this.  And there is something good to be found in any ethnic group; some enjoyable type of food, music, or dancing; some admirable tradition, some historical accomplishments, etc.  So if everyone takes pride in their own ethnic group without using that as a basis to attack or to think less of people from different ethnic groups, there is nothing wrong with that.  

9

^ 8

Re: Viva La Raza

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 11:47:07 AM EST

none

It is often the case that people find it necessary, in order to support their own feeling of self-respect and self-worth, to take pride in their ancestors and in the entire ethnic group from which they derive
And you find this acceptable for everyone except white folks. (What country, by the way, do Hispanic people come from?)

10

^ 9

Re: Viva La Raza

skeptic.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 12:05:51 PM EST

none

Ethnic pride is perfectly acceptable for white folks, but as I have already explained to you in some detail, if you are REALLY proud of your white ethnic heritage you should be more specific about it.  "White" is not really an ethnicity.  White people are British, Irish, Swedish, etc.  It is better to take pride in your actual ethnicity, not just in your pallid skin color.

Hispanic people are really a linguistic group more than an ethnic group, but I could say that they come, historically, from Spain, in which the Spanish language originated.  Of course, Hispanic people come from many countries, such as Mexico, Guatemala, etc., but the Hispanic culture can be traced back to Spain, that's why it is HiSPANic.

You could argue that since it is a group which includes people of many nationalities, "Hispanic" could be compared to "white" which is true to some extent, but there is one major difference, which is that the kind of abuses that have historically been associated with "white power" groups such as the neo-Nazis, have not been associated with Hispanics.  This could change, of course.  If I ever see the rise of some kind of Hispanic supremacy movement in the US, I will at that time lose my tolerance for such things as a Hispanic license plate.

35

^ 10

ethnic pride

wetkarma.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 10:38:03 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

"White" is not really an ethnicity.  White people are British, Irish, Swedish, etc.  It is better to take pride in your actual ethnicity, not just in your pallid skin color.

Not really opposed to this idea per se, but I'd like to take a few pokes at it.
How do you take ethnic pride in your ethnicity when all you have to go on (for history) is your black skin color? Presumably you could argue you want to represent 'Ivory Coast' pride..or 'Nigeria pride' but when your ancestors got their travel papers (i.e. chains) -- no one was making careful note separating the different african tribes.

So is it then 'african pride' instead of 'black pride'? And if so -- do Boer S. Africans get to play? I don't think 'descendant of slaves' pride has the same ring to it.

Interested in your thoughts as I honestly don't have any firm opinions on this except for a marginal tendencies to dislike ethnic affiliations/societies.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

36

^ 35

Re: ethnic pride

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 11:27:53 AM EST

none

Oprah thought she was Zulu!

37

^ 36

Re: ethnic pride

Lou.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 11:46:04 AM EST

none

Shaka Oprah?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

38

^ 37

Re: ethnic pride

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 12:03:46 PM EST

none

There are also a lot of African Americans who erroneously believe that they have a significant amount of Native American (usually Cherokee, in my experience) heritage.

39

^ 38

Re: ethnic pride

Lou.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 12:08:37 PM EST

none

25 ain't no jive.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

40

^ 39

Re: ethnic pride

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 12:39:49 PM EST

none

25 what?

41

^ 40

Re: ethnic pride

Lou.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 05:34:58 PM EST

none

25 Percent is heaven sent

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

11

^ 9

Re: Viva La Raza

Lou.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 12:52:15 PM EST

none

Originally they all are descended from Spain.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

13

^ 11

Re: Viva La Raza

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 01:11:33 PM EST

none

Originally they all are descended from Spain
No, that would make them Spanish. Hispanic is a different thing.

15

^ 13

Re: Viva La Raza

Lou.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 01:30:33 PM EST

none

How?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

16

^ 15

Re: Viva La Raza

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 01:53:02 PM EST

none

Depends on which sort of Hispanic you're talking about.

18

^ 13

Spanish vs. Hispanic

skeptic.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 02:47:42 PM EST

none

Spanish speaking people who live in Spain are called Spanish, whereas Spanish people living in countries other than Spain are called Hispanic.  In both cases, the Spanish language and culture derives ultimately from Spain.

20

^ 18

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 02:58:07 PM EST

none

...the Spanish language and culture derives ultimately from Spain
Ah, so that's why, for example, Argentinean culture and Dominican culture are the same.

Thanks for clearing that up.

23

^ 20

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

skeptic.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 03:03:07 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

You are making a very elementary error.  The fact that Argentina and the Dominican Republic both have cultures which can be traced ultimately back to Spain does not require them therefore to be identical.  Cultures evolve over time.

24

^ 23

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 03:08:31 PM EST

none

The error is that the cultures of "Hispanic" nations do not derive solely from Spain.

25

^ 24

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

skeptic.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 03:09:51 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

But of course, I never said that Hispanic cultures derive solely from Spain, I said that they derive ULTIMATELY from Spain.  I choose my words carefully.  Spain is the earliest source, not the only source.

21

^ 18

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

Steve Urkel.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 02:58:32 PM EST

none

There a lots of Hispanic people who or are not of Spanish descent and don't speak Spanish.

22

^ 21

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

skeptic.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 02:59:28 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Those Swedish Hispanics are fakes.

27

^ 22

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

Steve Urkel.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 03:44:45 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

Indigenous immigrants from Oaxaca, Mexico's second-poorest state, have flooded farm labor ranks in Monterey County in the last decade, settling at the bottom of a workforce that traditionally has been among the most exploited in the United States. Mixtecs (pronounced MEESH-tecs) and Triquis (pronounced TREE-keys) make up nearly half of the 70,000 farm workers in the greater valley area, including parts of San Benito, Santa Clara and Santa Cruz counties, according to Paul Johnston, a visiting lecturer at the University of California-Berkeley's Institute for Industrial Relations.

They left small farms in the remote hillsides near Putla Villa de Guerrero and nearby San José de Las Flores in western Oaxaca and from other areas throughout the state because of depleted soil and rock-bottom corn and coffee prices. Their arrival - speaking indigenous languages, little Spanish and no English in these majority Latino towns - has created tensions similar to those in white communities experiencing influxes of immigrants around the Bay Area and nationally. Law enforcement, schools and social services such as health care strain to serve the new population, and long-time residents meet them with suspicion or scorn.

A new farmworker survey suggests that nearly a quarter of such laborers in Western Washington are indigenous Mexicans or other Central Americans.

With their distinct culture and history, the relatively new migration of indigenous peoples from Latin America means cultural adjustments for their host towns.

Indigenous peoples from Latin America are the direct descendants of the inhabitants who lived in the region before colonial times....A Mount Vernon radio station run out of the local community college broadcasts public service announcements in one of the native languages -- Mixteco.

"We're involved with all the community and part of the community doesn't speak Spanish," said Carlos Bejar, the Spanish programming director at KSVR-FM/91.7.

According to Mexican government figures, one-third of Oaxacans speak indigenous dialects, and 14 percent don't speak Spanish.

The survey found that around 18 percent of those who said Spanish was not their first language reported that they could not read or write in Spanish.

28

^ 27

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

Shy Elf.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 01:46:36 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

29

^ 27

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

Lou.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 06:59:00 AM EST

none

So what?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

30

^ 27

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

skeptic.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 08:29:41 AM EST

none

I think it is true that a lot of people will tend to lump in the indigenous populations of Latin America with the Hispanic population, but these are really separate groups.  The term "Hispanic" is clearly derived from Hispania, meaning Spain.  Only people who are connected to the language and culture of Spain can legitimately be considered Hispanic.

31

^ 30

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 08:45:26 AM EST

none

Only people who are connected to the language and culture of Spain can legitimately be considered Hispanic
Ah, so someone who doesn't speak Spanish cannot be Hispanic? (Legitimately, I mean.)

32

^ 31

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

skeptic.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 08:59:49 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

There are people who don't speak Italian but still consider themselves to be Italian.  They do so on the basis of having ancestors who came from Italy and who did speak Italian.  It works much the same way with every ethnicity.  That is why I said that Hispanics are people who are CONNECTED to the Spanish language, which is not the same thing as saying that they actually speak it (although most do actually speak it).  It may be that Hispanic immigrants to the US will gradually adopt the English language and abandon the Spanish one, while still considering themselves to be Hispanic on the basis of their historical connection to Spanish-speaking ancestors.

33

^ 32

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 09:08:41 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

It works much the same way with every ethnicity.  That is why I said that Hispanics are people who are CONNECTED to the Spanish language...
Ah, so "Hispanic" is an ethnic group. Got it.

Are Filipinos Hispanic?

34

^ 33

Re: Spanish vs. Hispanic

skeptic.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 09:34:41 AM EST

none

Since I have defined "Hispanic" as the Spanish-speaking people (or even those who are merely descended from Spanish-speaking people) who don't live in Spain itself, then Filipinos would qualify.  I realize that the term Hispanic is usually applied only to people from Latin America, but on etymological grounds, Filipinos are as Hispanic as anyone.    

12

Your stallion stands in need of company

Steve Urkel.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 01:04:44 PM EST

none

As the write up notes, Hispanics didn't discover or settle Florida, - Spaniards did. In America the term Hispanic refers to people from Latin America or of Latin American descent that are living in this country. If Hispanics want a license plate that is historically accurate maybe the slogan should be "Hispanics invented the Chimichanga" or something.

14

^ 12

Re: Your stallion stands in need of company

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 01:13:32 PM EST

none

Fried plantains.

19

^ 12

Re: Your stallion stands in need of company

skeptic.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 02:55:27 PM EST

none

It may be that Hispanics were not the original settlers of Florida, but they certainly did settle there, as evidenced by the large numbers of Hispanics currently living in Florida.  The observation that Hispanics settled Florida, and that they invented the chimichanga, don't seem to be very exciting.  Possibly a more interesting observation about Hispanics as an ethnic/linguistic group is that they are the fastest growing ethnicity in America, and are expected eventually to become the largest single group, surpassing the traditional WASPs.  Of course, that is somewhat lengthy to use as a license plate slogan.  I might suggest "Hispanics:  the future of America".

This story: 41 comments (4 from subqueue)
Post a Comment