SciTech

What Does "World Takeover" Really Mean?

novy.

Posted to SciTech on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 08:15:01 AM EST (promoted by wetkarma). RSS.

From our own perspective, human beings have taken over this planet. From much smaller perspectives, though, human behaviour mostly matters because it serves to enable Argentine ants to spread across six continents, forming supercolonies so genetically similar to one another that ants from 1,000 miles apart would recognise one another as belonging to one single colony and refuse to fight with one another.

From their own perspective, Argentine ants have actually been taking over this planet, eliminating lesser ant species in any area in which they colonise. Argentine ant colonies, some as long as 3,700 miles or 6,000 km (as in coastal Europe), can be found on every continent except Antarctica.

If what makes Argentine ants so successful relates to accepting ants from foreign colonies as if they were part of their own, if that quality allows supercolonies to form to begin with, then would it be fair to call certain powerful nations or empires "supercolonies" as well? Americans, for example, don't instinctively attack foreigners. Instead, they make every effort to assimiliate you. Could that be what Argentine ants actually do to their local cousins? Does it matter to humans that Argentine spread means fewer species of ants, a/k/a less biodiversity? Does declining bio-diversity only matter when it has anthropogenic causes?

Tags: edited by wetkarma, written by novy, ants, biodiversity (all tags)

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going meta

wetkarma.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 11:06:39 AM EST

5.00 (intriguing)

I'd like to pose a thought experiment/question to the audience:
Why is it that people in general, but environmentalists specifically tend to prefer the status quo? It seems that every time we hear about invasive species or species becoming endangered this is categorized as negative.

Whats the thought process behind this?

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

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Re: going meta

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 09:59:27 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

You probably have at least a decent understanding of ecology, wetkarma, so I won't go into detail about the interconnectedness of life on Earth and how an invasive species can have effects on a local environment that cannot be predicted. We know, however, that the effects are almost always negative when put in terms of the overall health of the local ecology; that is to say that extirpations and extinctions are almost always a result.

As an appeal to your economic side, I'll offer an excerpt from biologist E.O. Wilson's book The Future of Life in which he explores the question, 'why should we care?'

Is there any way now to measure even approximately what is being lost? Any attempt is almost certain to produce an underestimate, but let me start anyway with macroeconomics. In 1997, an international team of economists and environmental scientists put a dollar amount on all the ecosystems services provided to humanity free of charge by the living natural environment. Drawing from multiple databases, they estimated the contribution to be $33 trillion or more each year. This amount is nearly twice the 1997 combined gross national product (GNP) of all the countries in the world--$18 trillion. Ecosystems services are defined as the flow of materials, energy, and information from the biosphere that support human existence. They include the regulation of the atmosphere and climate; the purification and retention of fresh water; the formation and enrichment of the soil; nutrient cycling; the detoxification and recirculation of waste; the pollination of crops; and the production of lumber, fodder, and biomass fuel.

The 1997 megaestimate can be expressed in another, even more cogent, manner. If humanity were to try to replace the free services of the natural economy with substitutes of its own manufacture, the global GNP would have to be increased by at least $33 trillion. The exercise, however, cannot be performed except as a thought experiment. To supplant natural ecosystems entirely, even mostly, is an economic--and even physical--impossibility, and we would certainly die if we tried. The reason, ecological economists explain, is that the marginal value, defined as the rate of change in the value of ecosystems services relative to the rate of decline in the availability of these services, rises sharply with every increment in the decline. If taken too far, the rise will outpace human capacity to sustain the needed services by combined natural and artificial means. Hence, a much greater dependence on artificial means--in other words, environmental prostheses--puts at risk not just the biosphere but humanity itself.


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Re: going meta

delete me.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 11:44:05 AM EST

none

I've had this thought before. Sometimes I wonder how hard we'd work to save the dinosaurs if they were still around.

Some animals are a detriment to the natural world, and spread solely because of human selfishness (ie., the Egyptian wildcat-cum-housecat-cum-feral stray). Some animals are just able to get around on their own, or migrate simply because they need to (due to environmental changes). Some of the animals we fear will harm nature, simply don't survive out in nature (the domestic ferret, for instance).

- derumi (del-me)
"It is the farewell kiss, you dog!" - Muntadhar al-Zaidi

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Re: going meta

skeptic.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 01:40:30 PM EST

none

The history of invasive species that have been introduced by humans is overwhelmingly one of massive destruction and economic loss.  The Gypsy moth was brought to North America deliberately by some fool who thought, incorrectly, that he could develop a silk industry using the moth cocoons.  Now there are billions of dollars of damage done to trees every year in North America by Gypsy moths.  The zebra mussel was introduced into the Great Lakes (through sheer carelessness) and now cloggs up intake pipes throughout the region, causing vast problems and expense.  And there are thousands of other examples.  Generally speaking, biological change turns out to cost us money.  It's a very practical matter.

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Re: going meta

DEMachina.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 03:46:55 PM EST

none

I think it's because of how unpredictable the ultimate consequences can be.  Environmentalists, I think, fear that we could do damage that we can't exactly predict by making large-scale changes to the environment.

And the thing is, they're right.  With the right stimulus, we could cause a chain reaction that could ultimately screw us.  This is why I think we can't go based on the idea that life adapts; life as a whole will, but we may not.  There's no real way to predict what will cause what, so shouldn't we try to play it safe when the consequences of a screw-up could be the extinction of our species?

So, for example, global warming: I think there's enough evidence there to say there's a good chance that it's true, but even without that, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that dumping that much of anything into the atmosphere is not going to make changes to the environment.  Since we can't predict what those changes may be, it seems worth it to me to err on the side of caution.

Then, of course, there're those things we know are bad.  You don't have to be an environmentalist (in the general way that's used) to conclude that dumping highly toxic chemicals into ground water supplies is a bad idea and not worth the money you save on disposal.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

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Re: What Does "World Takeover" Really Me

harzerkatze.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:23:45 AM EST

none

  1. Declining biodiversity is never good, for biodiversity is a resource. Especially if a species died out before being thoroughly studied, it probably can't be recreated, and takes all its secrets to the grave.

  2. Species dying out because other species have been imported by humans is still an anthropogenic cause.

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Re: What Does "World Takeover" Really Me

joshv.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:30:44 AM EST

none

"Declining biodiversity is never good, for biodiversity is a resource."

Tell that to our mammalian predecessors, who benefited greatly from the demise of the dinosaurs.

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biodiversity

skeptic.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 01:34:54 PM EST

none

I think that biodiversity is indeed a resource and would be a resource even in the case of the dinosaurs.  If we had access to dinosaur species today, I imagine that we would have some use for them, although I am not entirely sure what that use would be.  Some dinosaurs might prove to be a good source of meat; dinosaur leather would almost certainly prove useful, and who knows, it might even be possible to train some species to do useful work; there could be some unique aspect of dinosaur biochemistry of which we presently know nothing, but which might have pharmaceutical applications or other applications.  

The problem with dinosaurs is that even though they might prove to be useful, they are also very dangerous, and had they not died out 65 million years ago, it is possible that mammals would not have evolved beyond their early, shrew-like beginnings, and therefore the human race would never have existed, which sort of negates any possible utility which dinosaurs might have had for us.  This does not mean that biodiversity isn't useful, it means that sometimes there are more important issues than biodiversity.

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It's what for dinner

Lou.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 01:44:15 PM EST

none

heh...after reading your post I have a vision of modern cattle slaughterhouses but with raptors.  

Minty fresh

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Re: biodiversity

joshv.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 02:22:20 PM EST

none

Birds are dinosaurs, essentially.  Want dino-leather - skin an ostrich.

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Re: biodiversity

skeptic.

Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 09:53:02 AM EST

none

I think that I would get better leather from a featherless animal, rather than an ostrich, and furthermore, if I needed a really large piece of leather, dinosaurs would be the way to go - if we had them.  Of course, the actual utility of dinosaur leather remains speculative, until such time as some mad biologist is able to recreate their genetic sequence and resurrect the species, despite the very compelling warnings that we have received from the late Michael Crichton.

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Re: biodiversity

joshv.

Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 09:58:39 AM EST

none

There is some evidence than many dinos, even flightless dinos, that we thought were bare naked actually had feathers, or some precursor.  It might have been hard to find a featherless dino.

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Re: biodiversity

skeptic.

Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 10:53:26 AM EST

none

Feathers serve the primary purpose of keeping birds warm, and also can facilitate the process of flight.  Large dinosaurs stayed warm just because they had such a large ratio of volume to surface area, and would not have flown (although smaller pteranosaurs pioneered flight).  So it is not apparent to me why dinosaurs would have had feathers - although there may be some element of dinosaur biology that we don't know about.  Good looking feathers could have been a form of sexual display.  Anyway, it would be easier to breed a featherless ostrich to use for leather, than to try to bring back the dinosaurs.  Cows are working out OK as well.  The world is not crying out for new sources of leather.  Still, if only for novelty value, I could still see some designer shoes being made out of dinosaur hide.  But it might not have any real economic importance.

Without having any actual dinosaurs around to experiment with, it is hard to say what uses a dinosaur might have (we can safely reject the "Jurassic Park" idea of dinosaur tourism - the most ridiculous part of that movie series is  that such an obviously unsafe project would ever have been funded in the first place).  But I think that they would be useful for something.

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Re: What Does "World Takeover" Really Me

gerrymander.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:03:50 PM EST

none

Declining biodiversity is never good, for biodiversity is a resource. Especially if a species died out before being thoroughly studied, it probably can't be recreated, and takes all its secrets to the grave.

Of course, anyone who's paid attention to what Darwin wrote realizes that "declining biodiversity" is a temporary phase. Given sufficient time and localized environmental pressures, species will evolve to fit the open ecological niches left in the wake of the decline.

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Re: What Does "World Takeover" Really Me

joshv.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:07:30 PM EST

5.00 (subtle)

No no, declining biodiversity is a self-reinforcing downward spiral which will ultimately result in a barren Earth - just like it has so many times in the past.

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Re: What Does "World Takeover" Really Me

Lou.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:33:59 PM EST

none

The Sahara is growing.  

Minty fresh

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Re: What Does "World Takeover" Really Me

harzerkatze.

Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 08:29:17 AM EST

none

Of course, anyone who's paid attention to what Darwin wrote realizes that "declining biodiversity" is a temporary phase. Given sufficient time and localized environmental pressures, species will evolve to fit the open ecological niches left in the wake of the decline.
True but useless. The "sufficient time" you talk about is probably in the range of millions of years, that is not helpful to us humans (and anthropocentric as we are, we care about what affects us most).
Or stated the other way around: You have found the ultimate solution to all of humanities problems: Wait a few million years! Wow, you should go into politics with that approach. No reason to discuss any kind of problem anymore, because will it still be there in a few million years? Probably not. So why mention it at all?

I have the feeling that people tend to get a bit lightheaded when thinking about the vast expanses of time in our earths pre-history and thus suddenly think a problem that solves itself in a few million yaers is no problem. believe me, it is. Any species dying out will be lost for us fowever. That's why environmentalists prefer "the status quo": It is easy to go from multitude of species to few species, but almost impossible for us to go back. So it is safer to stay on the side that keeps your options open.

Seeing that we have few abilities to actually create new species that will last and don't have a high risk of being a danger to other risks, the "status quo" is synonymous to "variety", because almost every change introduced by man has resulted in a lessening biodiversity. If GOD came alonmg and asked an environmentalists if it was ok if he introduced a few million new cute furry species that are well adapted into the ecosystem, the environmentalist would probably say "Go ahead". It's just when the guy with the two sledge hammers instead of arms enters your china store and asks if he could rearrange your exposits that you prefer the "status quo". It doesn't mean that you are averse to something new, it rather means that you realize that anything new will be inferiour to the old.

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Re: What Does "World Takeover" Really Me

pO157.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 01:49:34 PM EST

none

Who cares?

Seriously. I'm not trying to be flippant. Look, the reign of man on this planet is going to be within the blink of an eye in geologic time. We can eliminate all the other species on the earth and rape the globe but when our time comes, it comes. We can mistreat animals, drive fish and other helpless things into extinction and all that will do is hasten our own doom.

The time will come, a facts a fact. Earth belongs to them, let's give it back.

♫You's a superstar boy, why you still up in the hood?♫

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Re: What Does "World Takeover" Really Me

Steve Urkel.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 02:21:36 PM EST

none

Speaking of biodiversity and takeovers, the the Environmental/EMS Coordinator for Public Utilities in the city of Raleigh, North Carolina has confirmed that the video of a pulsating blob creature taken in Raleigh's sewer is real.  What the hideous thing is, exactly, continues to be debated.

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Re: What Does "World Takeover" Really Me

keta.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 05:16:14 PM EST

none

That's Mark Sanford's love hemorrhoid, recently excised and flushed down a toilet.

Apparently it's a love hemorrhoid that just won't die.

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Who can solve its mystery?

Steve Urkel.

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 07:52:31 PM EST

none

No wonder it looks it so beautiful.

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Re: What Does "World Takeover" Really Me

novy.

Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 02:10:44 PM EST

none

Bryozoans! No, you fool, clumps of annelid worms! You must be kidding, surely you can see that Space Aliens have made themselves at home in Raleigh!

I can see why they chose Raleigh, what with its relative economic strength. Gorman Seedling may have been right, though. In these hard economic times, America can't be expected to provide jobs for everybody in this galaxy. What can that pulsating blob do that Americans can't do just as well?

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