Legal

Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitutional

Thalia.

Posted to Legal on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:50:57 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

According to Justice Kennedy's opinion (PDF), by a divided 5-4 court, this decision returns the First Amendment right of free speech to the corporation.  And by free, we mean "at a price."  Because corporate money for politicians can no longer be restricted.  

Justice Kennedy's opinion states that the identity of the political speaker (spending money on politics is, to the Court, speaking) cannot be the basis for restrictions on their independent political spending.  By equating speech and money, the court hands a huge victory to the rich corporations, and a defeat to equality according some commentators. Justice Stevens read the dissent from the bench, a fairly rare occurrence.

This is huge news, and has been discussed everywhere.  I figured TnT should join the fray.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by Thalia, corporations, money, free speech (all tags)

This story: 85 comments (5 from subqueue)
Post a Comment
13

Scalia is a dick

Lou.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:03:13 PM EST

5.00 (penile)

from the words of the master:

"...The dissent says that when the Framers "constitutionalized the right to free speech in the First Amendment, it was the free speech of individual Americans that they had in mind." That is no doubt true. All the provisions of the Bill of Rights set forth the rights of individual men and women--not, for example, of trees or polar bears."

Ho ho..polar bears.  He agrees that the framers supported free speech for individuals, and then deflects the issue by making a joke about polar bears.  What a wit.  He reminds me of someone...the name is right on the tip of my tongue.

Also...isn't this the same dude that said that the constitution is a dead document rather than a living one?  Also, isn't this the same dude that hates judicial advocacy?

What a dick.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

11

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:54:21 AM EST

1.00 (rectal)

Scalia's concurring opinion is awesome: it completely excoriates Stevens' s dissent and is also hilarious. Some excerpts:

...the dissent purports to show that today's decision is not supported by the original understanding of the First Amendment. The dissent attempts this demonstration, however, in splendid isolation from the text of the First Amendment...

...the dissent embarks on a detailed exploration of the Framers' views about the "role of corporations in society." The Framers didn't like corporations, the dissent concludes, and therefore it follows (as night the day) that corporations had no rights of free speech....

...Despite the corporation-hating quotations the dissent has dredged up, it is far from clear that by the end of the 18th century corporations were despised. If so, how came there to be so many of them?

...the notion which follows from the dissent's view, that modern newspapers, since they are incorporated, have free-speech rights only at the sufferance of Congress, boggles the mind...

...The dissent says that when the Framers "constitutionalized the right to free speech in the First Amendment, it was the free speech of individual Americans that they had in mind." That is no doubt true. All the provisions of the Bill of Rights set forth the rights of individual men and women--not, for example, of trees or polar bears.

14

^ 11

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:04:45 PM EST

none

...Despite the corporation-hating quotations the dissent has dredged up, it is far from clear that by the end of the 18th century corporations were despised. If so, how came there to be so many of them?

The founders expressed a very strong distaste for political parties (one might even say they despised them), and yet by the end of the 18th century they were well entrenched in the political system.  Would Scalia hold that because political parties existed, the founding fathers must have thought them wonderful?  It's a form of post hoc fallacy - hardly "brilliant'.

...The dissent says that when the Framers "constitutionalized the right to free speech in the First Amendment, it was the free speech of individual Americans that they had in mind." That is no doubt true. All the provisions of the Bill of Rights set forth the rights of individual men and women--not, for example, of trees or polar bears.

It's nice to know that the Supreme Court Justices have a maturity level slightly above that of 3rd graders.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

16

^ 14

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:16:03 PM EST

none

The founders expressed a very strong distaste for political parties (one might even say they despised them), and yet by the end of the 18th century they were well entrenched in the political system.  Would Scalia hold that because political parties existed, the founding fathers must have thought them wonderful?
I don't know what Scalia would say. But it seems obvious to me that to the extent the Founders sought to ameliorate the influence of political parties, they did so using the Constitution as a tool. They did not, however, use the Constitution to put limits on individual rights in the context of corporations. That absence of limits ought to be instructive to you.

It's nice to know that the Supreme Court Justices have a maturity level slightly above that of 3rd graders
Not suffering fools gladly is a virtue.

17

^ 16

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:26:54 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

don't know what Scalia would say. But it seems obvious to me that to the extent the Founders sought to ameliorate the influence of political parties, they did so using the Constitution as a tool. They did not, however, use the Constitution to put limits on individual rights in the context of corporations. That absence of limits ought to be instructive to you.

It's instructive of nothing, because modern corporations did not exist when the constitution was written.  Corporations in that time required government charter (generally through an explicit act of the state or federal legislature) and were much more tightly controlled.  Just because they didn't see fit to regulate corporations as they existed then doesn't mean they would approve of corporations as they exist now.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

18

^ 17

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:33:14 PM EST

1.00 (dense)

Just because they didn't see fit to regulate corporations as they existed then doesn't mean they would approve of corporations as they exist now
That's true. All it means is that there is no constitutional basis for restricting the speech of people who happen to be speaking in the context of an association with a corporation.

19

^ 18

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:44:18 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

That's true. All it means is that there is no constitutional basis for restricting the speech of people who happen to be speaking in the context of an association with a corporation.

Not necessarily - the question comes down to whether the constitution permits the restriction of speech of something resembling our modern corporations.  Since modern corporations didn't exist then, you have to look at the historical context to determine what the founder's attitudes were to historical corporations and to other contemporary entities and determine whether it's relevant or not.  I don't know, I haven't done the research, but to just tritely say that since corporations weren't regulated then, they can't (even though they're not completely different) be now is a pretty weak argument, and hardly the kind of "gotcha" that Scalia seems to think it is.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

20

^ 19

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:51:24 PM EST

1.00 (facile)

So you'd be okay with government censorship of, for example, The New York Times because it is owned by a corporation?

21

^ 20

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:23:14 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

Not only would I be okay with it, I think it would be perfectly fine for this to be applied to all corporately owned media.  If you want your newspaper or magazine to advocate for a particular candidate, then organize it as some other form of business than a corporation.  Simple as that.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

23

^ 21

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:34:57 PM EST

none

What is it about corporations per se that frightens you?

28

^ 23

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:45:30 PM EST

none

See comment 12.  My worry is simply the corrupting influence that concentrations of wealth tend to have on the democratic process.  I thought the status quo (no spending limits, but substantial limits on donations and on proxy campaigning through attack ads) was fine, since self-finance candidates are relatively rare.  This forced candidates to look to a broad base of support to gain funds.  Now, with the donation limits effectively removed, candidates can rely on a much smaller pool of donors.  That is what I fear.  Since corporations tend to have the largest concentrations of wealth (and tend to be controlled by people who already have a lot of concentrated wealth themselves), I fear that their influence will crowd out the influence of less wealthy voters and make a mockery of the notion that each person's opinion has equal weight in our political process.  If the monetary barrier to expressing that opinion becomes impossibly high for most Americans (i.e. if individual donations become less important to candidates as a funding source), then democracy suffers.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

25

^ 21

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

Lou.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:36:28 PM EST

none

The newspaper thing is a red herring.  

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

27

^ 25

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:44:02 PM EST

none

How so?

33

^ 21

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

joshv.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:55:27 PM EST

none

Simple as that?  I guess the only option would be to run your newspaper as some sort of sole proprietarship, directly owned and run by a single person?  The mind boggles.

37

^ 33

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 02:19:32 PM EST

5.00 (sane)

Simple as that?  I guess the only option would be to run your newspaper as some sort of sole proprietarship, directly owned and run by a single person?  The mind boggles.

That, or some kind of partnership.  The point would be to make sure the owners have liability for what the company is doing.  If they're personally invested in the company to the point that they're liable for the company's actions, then I think they should be allowed to speak through it just as if they were individuals.  For corporate media, I would favor something like the old fairness doctrine combined with the equal time rule.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

22

^ 11

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:25:48 PM EST

none

"Despite the corporation-hating quotations the dissent has dredged up, it is far from clear that by the end of the 18th century corporations were despised"

As Nick Szabo points out, nine of the original colonies were corporations, and corporations provided "deep, and indeed often dominant influences on the United States government". He obsesrves:

One indicator of the importance of the corporate form are its influences on the titles and symbols adopted by the United States.

"Citizen" is shorthand for the denizen of a city: a member of a municipal corporation. Members of a king's realm in contrast are called "subjects." "Governors" were groups in charge of corporations (usually corresponding to what in modern U.S. commercial corporations are called "directors," but sometimes, as in many American colonies, singular), while "presidents" were chief corporate executives who presided over meetings of the governors. The head of the London College of Physicians for example was its President, and each of the three centers of the East India Company was headed by a President. "Secretaries" (as in Secretary of State, Treasury, Defense, etc.) were corporate managers.

24

^ 22

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:35:00 PM EST

none

This also points out just how different corporations back then were from corporations today.  They were chartered by the government and existed at the government's whim.  They were chartered as much to control the members of the corporation as they were to enable it.  If corporations want all these rights, then I suggest we go back to treating them as they were in the 1780s.  

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

26

^ 24

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:36:36 PM EST

none

...I suggest we go back to treating them as they were in the 1780s
What would be the constitutional basis for doing that?

30

^ 26

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:47:40 PM EST

none

There isn't one - but there obviously isn't any reason not to, since treating corporations in that way was considered constitutional when the constitution was written.  If the founding fathers had wanted corporations to have more power, surely they would have explicitly stated so in the constitution, no?   After all, your founding fathers seem to be all-seeing and all-wise.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

52

^ 26

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

DEMachina.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 06:54:41 PM EST

none

What in the Constitution forbids it?

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

55

^ 52

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 07:12:10 PM EST

none

The First Amendment.

57

^ 55

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

DEMachina.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 08:14:52 PM EST

none

Where in the First Amendment does it say it applies to corporations?

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

61

^ 57

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 09:24:41 AM EST

none

It applies to everyone.

63

^ 61

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

DEMachina.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 11:06:46 AM EST

none

"Everyone" implies humans only; English has a different word to refer to things: everything.  Are you saying the Constitution applies to everything?

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

65

^ 63

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 11:12:35 AM EST

none

The Constitution applies to the government and the law.

70

^ 65

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

DEMachina.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 01:38:46 PM EST

none

That's one way of looking at it, I suppose, but it still doesn't answer the underlying question: why do you think the Founders intended the Bill of Rights to apply to non-human entities?

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

72

^ 70

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 02:32:28 PM EST

none

...why do you think the Founders intended the Bill of Rights to apply to non-human entities?
I don't think that.

74

^ 72

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

DEMachina.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 03:02:10 PM EST

none

You've been arguing this whole time that the government cannot infringe the rights of non-humans.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

75

^ 74

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 03:09:44 PM EST

none

I have?! Where?

29

^ 24

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:46:54 PM EST

none

Corporations today are highly regulated, it's strange seeing leftists pretend this isn't case. What would make sense is reverting government back into more corporate forms, like how things were.

31

^ 29

Re: The headline of this discussion makes no sense

Lou.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:52:46 PM EST

none

Corporations today are highly regulated

LOL - not for long.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

1

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

joshv.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:05:52 AM EST

none

" By equating speech and money, the court hands a huge victory to the rich corporations."

I am not sure I understand this - how did they equate speech and money?  I thought the question was around political ads (clearly speech) run by corporations around the time of a campaign.  Yes, it takes money to run such ads - but they are clearly political "speech" regardless of how much they cost.

To the larger issue - I have never understood why we consider "special interests" to be undemocratic.  Their money comes from somewhere right?  Individual consumers, customers, union members, other contributions.  Special interests represent the interests of real people.  I mean, are there some rogue PACs out there who have no identifiable constituency?  

These special interest groups all compete for dollars, just the same way politicians compete for votes.  If they don't serve their constituency their funding will decrease.

8

^ 1

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:30:00 AM EST

1.00 (obnoxious)

...how did they equate speech and money?
It is only people like Thalia who equate speech and money - only the people, that is, who support government censorship and oppose Constitutional rights.

51

^ 8

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

DEMachina.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 06:50:43 PM EST

3.00 (informative)

This is pretty dumb, even for you.  SCOTUS equated speech and money some time ago.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

54

^ 51

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 07:11:17 PM EST

none

And now they have recognized that equating the two was nothing more than a disingenuous way to do something that the Constitution prohibits.

2

^ 1

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:46:15 AM EST

none

These special interest groups all compete for dollars, just the same way politicians compete for votes.  If they don't serve their constituency their funding will decrease.

The problem isn't special interests, per se.  The problem is that certain special interest groups have the ability to raise far more money than others, and this ability has nothing to do with their political popularity.  If a company makes its money from hauling trash, what part of its ability to raise money from trash hauling would make you want it to be allowed to have a large influence on our political system?  The goal of campaign finance reform was to limit that influence and equalize to some degree the opportunity that people had to influence campaigns through monetary donations.  Our political tradition is "one man/woman one vote" - having certain actors spend much more money than others warps that tradition, since it gives people with excess cash an oversize platform to spread their message.  

It's one thing if a politician accumulates campaign money through many small donations, but if that money is only coming from a few sources, the opportunity is there for a candidate to win election but feel more loyalty to just the few special interests who paid for his campaign.  Even this is less of a problem if those special interests are broad based groups that at least represent large numbers of people (unions, animal rights groups, Audubon Society, NRA, pro-life groups, whatever), but if it's just a few large corporations then the notion of democratic rule becomes seriously compromised. Yes, even the most compromised candidate in the world still has to win elections, but it's widely recognized that in modern campaigns you need money to win elections, and a compromised candidate with money will usually beat a clean candidate who doesn't have money.  It's not a sure thing, but if taking the money is going to lead to victory more than 50% of the time (and I'd say evidence suggest it does far more often than that), you'll find most candidates are going to take the money.  If money is a necessary part of the political system, then the only way to ensure that people have relatively equal access to / ability to support & influence candidates is to limit the size of donations.

Now you could say that everyone has an equal ability to make money, and if you want to have the same ability to influence politics as Wal-Mart or Google, just go get rich.  This is trite.  From a practical standpoint, the vast majority of people will never be able to be that wealthy.  It's unhealthy for the one man one vote concept to have so much political power in the hands of just a few people (since we've established, money allows the purchase of political power - just see John Corzine, for example - sure his money was unable to preserve his seat as NJ governor, but it's equally true that it bought him four years in the job in the first place).  The rich can't completely dominate - a populist cause or candidate will occasionally come along and derail things, a really poor candidate (see Corzine) will fail if he's a spectacular failure - but they can certainly control things most of the time (and they do).

About the only argument for this that I can see is simply that successful people (the wealthy, wealthy corporations) should be in charge of the country, so what's the problem?  To some degree I have to agree with this - I would say that is why the system has more or less worked up to this point.  If the abject poor had as much influence a the rich currently do now (and the rich had as little influence as the abject poor), it would probably be an unmitigated disaster.  Still, there are certainly some potential pitfalls to allowing the wealthy to have so much influence.  At the end of they day, the wealthy are probably going to look to preserve their wealth first, even at the expense of what's good for the country as a whole (this is true of every economic group, but if a few hundred thousand wealthy people are looking out for their interests at the expense of the other 299 million of us, that's a lot more problematic than if the 150 million or so of the middle class are looking out for their own interests).  This may be a problem we simply have to deal with in the interest of preserving free speech (that's what the SCOTUS is arguing, I suppose), but it's disingenuous to claim it doesn't exist.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

3

^ 2

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

joshv.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:09:48 AM EST

4.00 (external)

The constituency of corporations that make money and spend it on politics are their customers.  If Walmart lobbies for a particular bill it's because they want to protect their profits, and their profits are aligned with the wants and needs of their customers.  

Now you might argue that their customers are mindless, fat conservative middle American idiots who don't realize what they are voting for when they open their wallets at Walmart - but so what?  They are reacting to convenience and price.  If there are 'externalities' associated with the low price and convenience (low wage non-union jobs, decrease in manufacturing jobs in the US, dearth of smaller local shops) , you are free to lobby for measures that price in those externalities, or to vote with your feet and patronize their competitors.

12

^ 3

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:57:50 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant, brilliant)

Now you might argue that their customers are mindless, fat conservative middle American idiots who don't realize what they are voting for when they open their wallets at Walmart - but so what?  They are reacting to convenience and price.  If there are 'externalities' associated with the low price and convenience (low wage non-union jobs, decrease in manufacturing jobs in the US, dearth of smaller local shops) , you are free to lobby for measures that price in those externalities, or to vote with your feet and patronize their competitors.

Two points.  First, the notion of a self-correcting free market relies on a neutral playing field.  If a particular company is exerting undue influence on the government such that it advantages itself against its competitors, it (or more often, a small group - such as cable providers or cell phone companies) can create a regulatory environment that gives it a de facto monopoly or oligopoly.  In that case people don't really have a "choice" about who to give their money to, if they want the service.  Second, I think it's a bit much to expect people to take political considerations into account when they're doing their shopping.  People (all people - this isn't a knock on "middle America" or whatever) can only consider so many factors when making decisions.  It's unrealistic to think that people will be able to research all these things when making buying decisions (particularly since corporations generally disguise their political activism by donating money to PACs that then run ads, so the corporations' names don't have to be on the ads themselves).  If you hold that purchasing decisions are a valid expression of political desires, then living a life in tune with all political desires becomes impossibly complex (indeed, probably simply impossible) for most people.

you are free to lobby for measures that price in those externalities, or to vote with your feet and patronize their competitors.

Let's say there are a dozen companies that make Widget A.  They all compete with each other, but Widget A is a very profitable and popular Widget so they're all well off.  They cooperate in one aspect - they've formed a Widget A trade group to lobby the government.  Why have they done so?  The current manufacturing process they use to make Widget A creates toxic chemicals that are released into the environment.  The Widget Makers could make Widget A without those chemicals, but it would drive up the cost and eat into their profits, so they oppose doing so.  Widget A has become such a ubiquitous device that people are expected to have it in their everyday lives - if you don't have a Widget A, you're viewed as something of a Luddite.  People would prefer a "green" version of Widget A, but the Widget Maker Political Action Committee (WMPAC) runs many campaign ads for congressmen to gain their favor.  WMPAC is so well funded because their product is so popular that pro-environmental groups don't have a chance, even though the vast majority of people, when neutrally educated about the issue, indicate they would prefer a more eco-friendly widget.  Eco-friendly Widget Maker startups have attempted to sell such a product, but every time they do the WMPAC members have undercut them on price, and run FUD campaigns talking about how their product actually is eco-friendly, even though it in no way is.  In such a case people have almost no choice but to support the company with their money, and yet almost no chance to impose legal restrictions because the company's money will have bought off the politicians that could do something about it.

Does such a perfectly pernicious scenario happen often?  No, but elements of that scenario happen all the time.  It's unrealistic to think that markets can be an expression of what people want in the political realm.  Indeed, if this is the case, why even have government at all?  Just let the markets take care of everything.  I realize that would be attractive to some people, but I don't think that you (joshv) are one of them - you do believe there is some place for government, no?  Making the system through which people express their will (voting) highly complex makes it that much more difficult for the will of the people to actually be expressed in the actions of politicians.  Now again, you might think that's a good thing, but I disagree with your assertion that it's simply irrelevant.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

15

^ 12

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:07:40 PM EST

5.00 (helpful, informative)

People (all people - this isn't a knock on "middle America" or whatever) can only consider so many factors when making decisions.

See here for a discussion of the limits of human rational decision making abilities.  

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

4

^ 3

Forget Wal-Mart

Lou.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:15:35 AM EST

none

Pharma, mining, big manufacturing/energy, banking (not to mention the hissy fit it's throwing right now).

Am I missing anyone?

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

5

^ 4

How could I forget

Lou.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:16:16 AM EST

none

Big agriculture

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

6

^ 4

Re: Forget Wal-Mart

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:16:45 AM EST

none

Labor unions.

7

^ 6

Re: Forget Wal-Mart

joshv.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:27:10 AM EST

none

But it's not bad lobbying when you agree with the people doing the lobbying.

9

^ 7

Re: Forget Wal-Mart

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:30:25 AM EST

none

This decision is not about lobbying.

10

^ 7

Re: Forget Wal-Mart

Lou.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:38:10 AM EST

none

Not necessarily.  I support unions in general...but I don't want them to have unusual/unfair influence.  And this is the crux of the issue for me.  I don't have problem with lobbying...even that done by groups I disagree with.  It's the enormous influence driven by money.

But in the end, this is all pissing in the wind anyway.  Big biz/unions* have always had enormous over representation in government.  This ruling just allows them to not have to be inconvenienced as much.

.
*Unions are actually a red herring in this ruling.  Even the most virulent union hater has to admit that union membership has been shrinking for a long time.  Soon, the Union Lobby will have the same level of influence as the Elderly Lady With Too Many Cats Lobby.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

32

^ 2

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:55:18 PM EST

none

"It's one thing if a politician accumulates campaign money through many small donations, but if that money is only coming from a few sources, the opportunity is there for a candidate to win election but feel more loyalty to just the few special interests who paid for his campaign"

Having to fundraise constantly deters normal people from participating in politics. It is easier for voters to judge the bias of a politician who is funded from few sources than one who is funded from many.

34

^ 32

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:58:49 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

It is easier for voters to judge the bias of a politician who is funded from few sources than one who is funded from many.

Perhaps, but by adopting this system we're eliminating all ideas that don't have a few heavily funded donors to champion them.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

35

^ 34

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

Lou.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 02:11:02 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

Well, we can always check to see which politician our favorite corporations support and vote accordingly.  For instance, I really dig Pfizer.  I don't know why...maybe it's the name.  But whoever Pfizer supports, well that's my man.

One thing that could make picking a candidate is to make them wear Nascar style driving suits instead of your typical Brooks Brother special.  Just replace STP, Dupont Auto, etc with Halliburton, Exxon, Sprint, etc.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

36

^ 34

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 02:13:55 PM EST

none

I don't see why that would be the case. It wasn't that way in the past.

38

^ 36

Re: Corporate Restrictions on Donations Unconstitu

port1080.

Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 02:30:13 PM EST

none

I don't see why that would be the case. It wasn't that way in the past.

The heavy media dependence of the modern political campaign has increased the amount of money and resources needed to campaign by a significant amount since these restrictions were put in place (keep in mind - this decision didn't just overturn McCain-Feingold - it also overturned parts of AUSTIN v. MICHIGAN CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, which goes back to 1990.  Many of these campaign "innovations" which are now legal again were relatively new at that point (PACs themselves only really came into their own in the 1980s - before the 1976 FECA was passed, corporations rarely campaigned directly for or against candidates, but rather gave to political parties or to campaigns directly).

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

39

Caution

uncarved block.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 11:55:44 AM EST

none

    Mixed reactions, over all. The part of me that has roots in lefty libertarianism finds this a depressing, if inevitable, increase in the actual power of business in American political culture, in contrast to the overwhelming symbolic power it already enjoys. Will this court go even further and lift bans on direct spending to candidates? I wouldn't bet against it, nor would I bet against this change coming with an increase in transparency.
     The political wonk side of me thinks the effects of this change are being dramatically overstated; two of the most effective lobbying groups in America spend almost nothing for the clout they enjoy. Where this will be felt most acutely will be far down the political chain, on a guess-- mayor, county sheriff, judges, that kind of seat, where a well placed couple thousand dollars can make a huge difference. By the time you hit the national level (House and Senate, much less the presidency), there's already so much "noise" from free PR and current levels of spending that it will take a truly massive campaign for anybody to notice. Oh, the actual money in the system will go up at that level, but I'd guess the results will remain largely the same, unlike in the local races. But Americans stopped giving too much care about that level of politics years ago . . .
    Last but not least, I have to wonder just exactly why a conservative would like this decision. But I guess "making liberals upset" became a justification of its own a while back.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

40

^ 39

Re: Caution

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 12:20:47 PM EST

none

...I have to wonder just exactly why a conservative would like this decision
Perhaps it's because conservatives tend to cherish their constitutional rights; same reason that many conservatives like court decisions that strengthen the Second Amendment.

41

^ 40

Re: Caution

shane.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 12:29:45 PM EST

none

How does giving the undead unlimited political influence help strengthen your constitutional rights?

42

^ 41

Re: Caution

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 01:18:46 PM EST

none

Who are "the undead"?

45

^ 42

Re: Caution

shane.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 02:38:06 PM EST

none

define: undead
Those creatures which are dead yet still moving;
Undead is a collective name for fictional, mythological, or legendary beings that are deceased yet behave as if alive;

define: corporation
A group of individuals, created by law or under authority of law, having a continuous existence independent of the existences of its members,

47

^ 45

Re: Caution

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 03:25:50 PM EST

none

Well, no, I guess I don't think that giving mythical creatures unlimited political influence will strengthen my rights.

46

^ 39

Re: Caution

Steve Urkel.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 03:21:53 PM EST

none

"I have to wonder just exactly why a conservative would like this decision"

I strongly support free speech.

53

^ 46

Re: Caution

DEMachina.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 06:56:45 PM EST

none

So you support freedom of speech for things that aren't human?  What other parts of the Bill of Rights do you want to give to non-human entities?

What basis do you have for the (implied) claim that the Framers wanted the Bill of Rights to apply to non-human things?

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

56

^ 53

Re: Caution

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 07:12:57 PM EST

none

Do you support government censorship of newspapers?

58

^ 56

Re: Caution

DEMachina.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 08:15:15 PM EST

none

Answer my question and I'll answer yours.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

60

^ 58

Re: Caution

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 09:23:09 AM EST

none

Which one?

64

^ 60

Re: Caution

DEMachina.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 11:07:19 AM EST

none

http://treesandthings.com/comments/2010/1/21/143252/680#53

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

66

^ 64

Re: Caution

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 11:12:55 AM EST

none

There are three questions. Which one did you wish me to answer?

69

^ 66

Re: Caution

MinusOne.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 01:30:44 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

I usually don't get involved in these kind of pissing matches, but the answer to this question:
There are three questions. Which one did you wish me to answer?
  Could well be this one:
What basis do you have for the (implied) claim that the Framers wanted the Bill of Rights to apply to non-human things?
Although you failed to answer any of the three questions.
This is my question as well.  How did these legal fictions get human rights?

71

^ 66

Re: Caution

DEMachina.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 01:39:16 PM EST

none

I'd like all 3, but considering your (standard) evasiveness, I'd be happy with any.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

76

^ 53

Re: Caution

Steve Urkel.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 10:58:06 PM EST

none

I support freedom of speech for associations of individuals. The First Amendment plainly states there shall be no law "abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press". The effect of campaign finance laws was to restrict speech.

43

a victory for the smaller guy

gerrymander.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 01:23:43 PM EST

none

Now that I've had a chance to read the decision, I have to say it's a good one. It's a victory for free speech, and a return to the original intent of the First Amendment.

Contra the various fretting about "the rich", this decision is instead a monumental one for people who aren't rich enough. Think about it: a group with enough money could set up a PAC with all of the staffing and filing (both administrative and legal) costs which come with that. The really rich could just buy/start a "news organization" and use that as a mouthpiece (coughGEcough). It's everyone under that level of wealth who was being denied chances to engage in political speech within the struck-down laws' time restrictions. Now, that's no longer true. A smaller company or industry that has been targeted by an unfriendly politician or adverse ballot initiative can fight back.

This decision also returns "freedom of speech and the press" closer to an originalist interpretation: all spoken and written word. No need to carve out a separate set of "press" rights for news corporations which apply outside and apart from other corporate interests; every company is a news company, just like every person is a journalist. Corporations still can't contribute directly to candidates, but that makes sense, too. Corporations are made up of people. While those people don't give up their speech rights just because they gather in address issues in certain ways, neither should those certain ways allow them to multiply their direct political involvement.

44

^ 43

Smaller guy, indeed

Lou.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 02:32:22 PM EST

none

I didn't know Citgo, Saudi Arabia, Seimans, Lenovo, et al were "smaller guys"?

Up to now foreign companies couldn't participate in American politics.  Maybe now they can?

Here's one for the Irony Fans.

Turns out that this case has a connection to Citizens United's movie, Hillary.  Damn liberal FEC wouldn't let them advertise their film.  This is especially funny since CU tried to do the same thing against Fahrenheit 9/11.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

48

^ 44

Re: Smaller guy, indeed

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 03:28:35 PM EST

none

...CU tried to do the same thing against Fahrenheit 9/11
Thanks to this court ruling, Michael Moore need not fear such interference in the future.

49

^ 44

Re: Smaller guy, indeed

gerrymander.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 03:47:24 PM EST

none

Fat jokes aside, I am in favor of my political opponents having free speech.

As for foreign companies, the decision explicitly noted that it did not resolve any issues pertaining to foreign ownership. I'd say "maybe Congress could pass a law", but considering the predilections of this congressional majority, they'd probably decide to give Chavez citizenship (on a party-line split vote, of course).

50

^ 49

Re: Smaller guy, indeed

Lou.

Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 04:16:32 PM EST

5.00 (occidental)

maybe Congress could pass a law

Maybe they could...but the fact that the SCOTUS didn't resolve this opens a door that will be hard to shut.  Damn...what's the name of that country we are in debt up to our eyeballs with?

Oh yeah, China.

Huan Ying our new Chinese masters.

Why does reduced fat Swiss cheese have twice as many holes are regular Swiss cheese?

82

^ 49

Re: Smaller guy, indeed

Thalia.

Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:39:25 AM EST

none

There isn't a publicly traded corporation in the United States that has no foreign ownership.  Every shareholder is an owner, after all.  So, if this doesn't apply to corporations that are in part foreign-owned, I will be much less concerned.  And I will be tremendously amused.

59

Local elections are likely to see effects first

MinusOne.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 03:51:42 AM EST

none

My main concern is not so much national office elections, although I think they will be significantly affected by this decision in a bad way.   My concern is much more for local elections.  This decision makes it much easier for a large corporation to get their way in a local election.  Suppose, for example, that SuperMegaloMart wants to build a new store in SmallCity.  However, the city council is trying to limit sprawl and protect the character of their town.  This I feel is a reasonable  decision for a municipality to make.  The rich corporation could probably spend what for them is a relatively small amount of money to get local government changed into people friendly to their interests.   In a slightly more inflammatory example, suppose its not a new store, but a toxic waste dump, or a strip mine, or a chemical factory.  The cost of supporting friendly candidates in a local election is fairly small compared to the investment in whatever facility a big company from out of town might have to spend.

I really don't understand the logic that gives corporations the same rights as actual humans.  The motivation of a corporation is profit for the owners.  Their interest is exclusively that of the shareholders, not the good society, or even the narrow interests (no matter how well or badly intended, selfish or altruistic) of an individual.  Its reasonable to think that an individual might make voting decisions or campaign contributions based on how they think a candidate or measure might affect society as a whole. It is not reasonable to think that a corporations will do the same thing.  They will make decisions based on whether it will help the firm make a profit regardless of the good or bad effects on society.  Corporations have to be essentially selfish in these decisions or they violate their obligations to their shareholders to make profit.  I can see the possibility of  a company being sued for a contribution to a candidate that supported a policy detrimental to profits.

This is not to say that a corporation cannot do good in the world, nor that they cannot make support an candidate without the expectation of some sort of quid pro quo that would benefit the corporation.  Its just that I find it hard to think of a case where a company could justify support of a political campaign without the expectation that winning would bring them some benefit.  

Corporations should have rights, the should be protected by the law and responsible to the law.  They should not have the exact same rights as an actual person.  Their interests in and responsibilities to society at large are significantly different those of a citizen.  There should be a special class of rights and responsibilities under the law for businesses.

I'd go so far as to say that there should be no campaign contributions except those by individual citizens. Why should companies, unions, interest groups or any one else be allowed to make these sorts of contributions?   I also think that limits to the amount individuals can donate are reasonable.  The limits should be high enough so that candidates can finance their campaign, but not so high as to skew the fund raising to favor the wealthy.  

62

^ 59

Re: Local elections are likely to see effects firs

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 09:46:33 AM EST

none

My concern is much more for local elections
There are reasons to be concerned about scenarios such as the hypothetical ones you have outlined. There may be other reasons to worry, too. But that does not change the fact that the US Constitution says that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. There are no exceptions for concerns about corporations or any other associations of people.

I really don't understand the logic that gives corporations the same rights as actual humans
You have the right to vote, don't you? Do you lose that right when you join a corporation (whether as an investor or employee)?

68

^ 62

Re: Local elections are likely to see effects firs

MinusOne.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 01:22:58 PM EST

none

You have the right to vote, don't you? Do you lose that right when you join a corporation (whether as an investor or employee)?

Of course I don't lose that right.  How does the corporation gain that right of free speech when a piece of paper is filed with some government creating a legal entity?   Why should I as a citizen gain further influence and voice simply because I've created a legal entity to organize my assets?   All a citizen would have to do to be allowed unlimited campaign contributions is incorporate an entity, fund it, and use the funding to support candidates.  

You seem to claim that by curtailing corporate rights you are curtailing the rights of the owners of those corporations.  I simply disagree - the owners still have all of their individual rights.  How did the corporation obtained a separate right of free speech?

The decision that money equals speech in political campaigns is the other leg this decision stands on.  I'm not too convinced on that point either.

73

^ 68

Re: Local elections are likely to see effects firs

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 02:40:27 PM EST

none

How does the corporation gain that right of free speech when a piece of paper is filed with some government creating a legal entity?
In addition to being an artificial legal entity, a corporation is a group of people. Those people retain their right to free speech when they join a corporation the same way you retain the right to vote.

Why should I as a citizen gain further influence and voice simply because I've created a legal entity to organize my assets?
What "further influence"?

All a citizen would have to do to be allowed unlimited campaign contributions is incorporate an entity, fund it, and use the funding to support candidates
Why would incorporation be required? If you have money, you may use it to promote anything you wish to say.

The decision that money equals speech in political campaigns is the other leg this decision stands on
No, the idea is that if you wish to spend money promoting your speech, any prohibition on using your money in that manner is inherently a limitation on your right to free speech.

67

^ 59

Re: Local elections are likely to see effects firs

gerrymander.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 01:12:50 PM EST

none

Why should companies, unions, interest groups or any one else be allowed to make these sorts of contributions?

They are not allowed to make those sorts of contributions to cadidates, and this ruling doesn't change that.

What the ruling does do is allow corporations, unions and other interest groups to buy advertising time and otherwise publicly broadcast support or criticism of candidates and ballot initiatives before an election. That's all.

77

^ 59

Never noticed any effects

Steve Urkel.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 11:03:08 PM EST

none

You should compare campaigns in the "Twenty-four states ban or restrict corporate spending on advertising for or against state candidates" with the twenty-six that don't.  

78

Is it even constitutional?

wayhip.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 11:15:22 PM EST

none

In this day and age of multinational corporations, some questions come up.

Let's look up Article I, Section 9, clause 8:
"No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state."

So suppose a foreign government owns a corporation. Does this violate the emoluments clause? How about if a high ranking official, or member of a Royal Family sit on the board of directors. Can or cannot the company make direct contributions? Are they only prohibited from contributing to incumbents? Can they only contribute to challengers who do not hold public office?

This opens a whole can of worms. Corporations are not people. They are abstract legal entities in the service of people.

79

^ 78

Caws Of Morn

Steve Urkel.

Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 11:46:11 PM EST

none

Corporations can't make direct contributions to candidates.

80

^ 79

Re: Caws Of Morn

wayhip.

Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 12:10:16 AM EST

none

If they are people they can.

81

^ 80

Re: Caws Of Morn

Steve Urkel.

Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 12:23:41 AM EST

none

Why do you think corporations are people?

83

^ 81

Re: Caws Of Morn

Thalia.

Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 04:47:31 AM EST

none

1 U.S.C. §1:

In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, unless the context indicates otherwise-- the words "person" and "whoever" include corporations, companies, associations, firms, partnerships, societies, and joint stock companies, as well as individuals.

85

^ 83

Re: Caws Of Morn

Steve Urkel.

Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 12:51:11 PM EST

none

"unless the context indicates otherwise".

84

^ 78

Re: Is it even constitutional?

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 08:31:46 AM EST

none

This case was about freedom of speech.

This story: 85 comments (5 from subqueue)
Post a Comment